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Managing conflicts in a business, whether large or small, can be tricky. However, it is essential if one wishes to maintain good cohesion within the organization. Julien Ohana has made this his expertise through his company Alternego.
As we take a summer break, the teams at impact.info invite you to (re)listen to one of our episodes published this year.Julien Ohana , founder of the company Alternego .
Enjoy listening!
Juliette Boulegon
impact.info journalist
Published on 20 August 2024
Transcript Audio in Français — text automatically translated· AI-generated transcript
0:00 Hello, this is Juliette, and welcome to the podcast for those who want to make a difference in their company. 0:09 There have been conflicts within companies, there are conflicts, and there will be conflicts. 0:11 From the smallest to the most complex, it's a common part of society. 0:16 And sometimes, internally, it may be too complex to resolve, and that's where 0:21 the company Alternego, of our guest today, Julien Oana, comes in. 0:26 My name is Julien Oana, I'm 43 years old, I was born in Paris, 13th arrondissement, 0:30 March 11, 1980, and currently, I am a founding partner and manager of the company Alternego, 0:38 which is a consulting, training, support, and research company in the field 0:45 and expertise of HR, all topics related to conflict in the workplace. 0:50 Julien Oana, for this first question, can you explain precisely 0:56 what you do at Alternego? 1:01 Well, I am a speaker, consultant, trainer, and manager, and as a managing 1:03 partner, since I have two partners with whom I have historically managed the firm for 1:12 now 13 years. 1:17 I am particularly in charge of development and external growth. 1:19 And what was the idea behind founding and creating this company? 1:23 After graduating from business school, I immediately felt that I wanted to start a business. 1:28 I started by creating a communication agency with friends, and in 2004, I had a friend, 1:34 Ricardo Querasnuel, who was with me in school, who came to me to start a major mission for the United Nations, for the FAO, 1:40 around multilateral negotiations. 1:45 So, I had the chance to work for this great institution alongside my 1:50 communication agency, and thus became passionate about the subject of negotiation. 1:52 And ultimately, I realized that it was such a passion that I had to 1:57 turn it into a business. 2:01 In 2009, I met Ricardo Querasnuel again, who introduced me to Jean-Édouard Grézy to 2:03 found an external firm focused on negotiation and conflict management. 2:05 Yes, so I imagine that our question of the day, namely why not teach 2:11 the art of peace to leaders, inspires you. 2:14 Well, that's already an excellent question. 2:19 When we created the Alternego firm, we used a phrase from Edgar Morin, he said 2:22 'nowhere are we taught to understand each other.' And I think that from 2:25 that perspective, he was absolutely right. 2:29 Since 2000, and notably thanks to a great man who is a mentor to me, named 2:33 Alain Lempereur, we started teaching the art of negotiation. 2:35 Now, I don't know if it's exactly the art of peace, but in a way, 2:41 it's already a way to try to find common ground among several parties. 2:44 The art of negotiation began to be taught in business schools, 2:48 notably at Harvard and MIT, with a program called the PON, the Program of Negotiation, 2:51 2:55 3:00 In the 70s and 80s. 3:02 And then, it was first imported by companies in France to offer 3:08 training to other private companies. 3:10 And then, in the academic and university sector, particularly business schools, 3:15 in 1996 with Alain Lempereur. 3:17 And since then, more and more, real programs have emerged in business schools 3:22 for support and training in negotiation. 3:25 What is true is that these are not often mandatory courses. 3:29 These are not things that are taught enough. 3:33 Yet, this is what we are most confronted with in business, which is 3:39 the ability to negotiate, so in a way, to deal with others. 3:43 It's a way of making peace. 3:45 And basically, that's what you apply today with Alternego? 3:48 That's exactly what we apply. 3:50 We talk about what we call productive conflict. 3:53 When we introduce ourselves, we say we are experts in conflict. 3:56 Understand that today, we address the issue of inclusion, diversity, 3:59 psychosocial risks, and suffering at work. 4:01 These are not topics on which we can have clear-cut opinions. 4:04 It's the idea of productive conflict. 4:07 It's to say that conflict is not a problem in itself, it's the way we 4:11 handle it that is. 4:12 How do we get people around the table to have a constructive dialogue 4:15 on these topics to succeed in finding solutions and to come out in 4:20 the best possible conditions? 4:22 Conflict is everywhere, it is omnipresent. 4:24 I like this example. 4:25 Do you know which is the least conflictual country in the world, Juliette? 4:28 Yes, I would say definitely the Nordic countries, Denmark, all that, I don't know, 4:33 but they are always number one for everything. 4:34 The least conflictual country in the world is North Korea. 4:37 Ah, wow! 4:38 There is no conflict in North Korea. 4:40 Yes, when you are in a dictatorship, you don't have conflict in principle, at least not visible conflict. 4:45 And so, we can see that the absence of conflict doesn't say much about 4:46 the maturity and democratic dimension of a country. 4:50 So, what is interesting is to see how we can approach conflict because it is essential for innovation, it is essential for 4:52 evolution. 4:56 5:00 5:01 But how can we approach it intelligently? 5:04 We tend to say that the couples who last the longest are not the couples who 5:08 argue the least, but those who argue the best. 5:11 It's exactly the same in the business world. 5:13 So, in your opinion, what is the hardest part for an entrepreneur? 5:16 Is it to make it accepted that there is a conflict or to maintain this 5:21 state of peace? 5:22 No, it's precisely to show that peace and conflict are not inseparable. 5:27 That is to say, for peace to continue, we must accept to address the 5:32 problems. We must not sweep conflicts under the rug like dust. 5:35 No, there are plenty of individual and collective micro-conflicts. 5:36 It's normal. 5:39 We are faced with what we call work dialectics, while at the same time 5:41 they want to respect the well-being of their employees, the mental health 5:45 of their teams. 5:48 You understand that this is still a topic that is not easy to resolve. 5:50 Try to address the issue as early as possible, rather than calling 5:53 us when you need to put out the fire. 5:58 What are the reasons why you are called? 6:00 Do you have examples to give us, typical conflicts, if I may say? 6:02 Yes, the conflicts that are currently the most publicized and visible are those related, for example, to sexist behavior. 6:06 When you are confronted in an organization with a situation like 6:06 that, how do you handle the issue? 6:11 Well, of course, you can call on firms that are firms that 6:14 will conduct investigations, a bit like they are looking for a culprit at all 6:18 costs, and especially who will then say, 'OK, we will cut off the heads of 6:20 people.' I understand the approach behind this method. 6:23 However, for me, it is not sustainable. 6:27 Either, indeed, faced with a situation like that, we have a case that is an isolated case, or, in fact, we know that it is a situation that is a bit 6:31 more complicated than that, because there is a corporate culture that 6:35 can be permissive, for example, at least that may have tolerated such 6:37 behaviors for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and which makes it very complicated to change things today. 6:40 And it is not just the fact of knowing that someone has committed such a reprehensible act 6:45 and firing them that will change the situation. 6:49 It is important to address the issue of what allows certain behaviors. 6:52 6:58 7:00 7:04 7:07 7:11 How to emerge like this? 7:12 How can we make things change while still allowing ourselves to joke at work, while continuing to have healthy relationships? 7:15 Inclusion today is about finding the right balance. 7:19 It's a real openness to others, but that doesn't mean renouncing oneself either. 7:21 So, for you, does getting out of a conflict require know-how or being? 7:24 Well, it requires three levels. 7:27 It requires knowledge, know-how, and being. 7:28 This is what we call know-how in action. 7:32 Let's say it's a mix of the three. 7:34 You need knowledge because you also need to recontextualize things. 7:35 You need to have a historical dimension. 7:38 You need to understand what tools are at our disposal. 7:40 For example, in the context of social negotiations, we use what we call method agreements. 7:42 Of course, you need know-how because when you're faced with conflicts, which are hot conflicts, you need to be able to handle the tools, which are communication tools, correctly. 7:45 And then, you need being because I still believe that what is a bit the poor relative of all these subjects, that is to say, relationships in organizations, is nevertheless what saves us and protects us all in the most delicate situations. 7:47 And to conclude, do you think it's the same skills to get out of a conflict as to avoid entering one? 7:50 There are similar skills, of course, which are skills related to empathy and listening. 7:54 You need to be able to be empathetic while also being assertive. 7:56 Someone who is only empathetic and who is not able to reframe, for example, certain situations, will miss at least half the way. 8:00 Let's say that overall, they are the same skills and depending on the contexts, situations, and people, we can specifically draw from this or that know-how, this or that being. 8:05 When I was 16, I dreamed of being a commercial pilot and a movie actor. 8:08 And in a way, I became a business leader to bring together these two passions, that of piloting and acting, because as a speaker, trainer, consultant, I tend to stage things. 8:13 8:16 8:20 8:23 8:28 8:31 8:36 8:38 8:41 8:42 8:47 8:52 8:56 9:00 9:04 9:09 9:15 9:20 9:24 with my clients. And so, I managed to combine my two passions and 9:29 turn this dream into a reality. 9:32 Well, thanks to Julien, who is, I remind you, the head of the company 9:36 Alternego, for this meeting that you can find in our section 9:40 HR, which brings together all the episodes focusing on concrete solutions for 9:44 more engaged teams. 9:46 This was impact.info, doing business differently. Embed this interview on your site
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